Joyann Boyce: Where's the benefit to you that this company's included diversity and inclusion?

If you are loving the MindStyling Podcast don't forget to rate, review, subscribe and share.  

Today's guest is Joyann Boyce an Inclusive Marketing Consultant and Founder of The Social Detail. The company works with SMEs within the technology sector to maximise their impact through social media. The Social Detail has worked with a range of organisations including the Coke GB, Adobe XD, SETsquared and Future Space. In her three years of running the agency, Joyann has placed data & inclusion at the heart of her approach to marketing, from idea to creation to reviewing and consumption. 

 Joyann is a fierce advocate for diversity and inclusion within marketing and tech. Seeing a gap in the stock photo market, she partnered with the SHIFT project to create a portfolio of diverse stock photography. The project was featured on the BBC.

She is currently a Data Fellow with the South West Creative Technology Network, researching how bias within data can be positively used to benefit marginalised groups. The fellowship is allowing her to connect her two passions for data and diversity by exploring the depths of data and machine learning. Her research shows that when dealing with AI, the primary focus has been on trying to eliminate any bias in it. Instead, she believes we can learn more about creating unbiased machines by flipping the bias in favour of marginalized groups and then comparing the outcomes.

We discussed: ⁠
💫 The Role that technology plays in exclusion and how we can turn it on it's head to create inclusion.
💫 Why it is important to understand your own biases and be transparent about the biases that you have
💫 Taking care of Mental Health



About The MindStyling Podcast
Website: mindstyling.group

Instagram:
www.instagram.com/mindstylingpodcast 

Twitter: 
 www.twitter.com/mindstylingpod 

Facebook:
 www.facebook.com/mindstylingpodcast 

Host Amy Armstrong:

Website: https://amyarmstrongcoaching.com
Instagram:  www.instagram.com/amyarmstrongcoaching

Host: Dr Becky Sage
Instagram:  www.instagram.com/drbeckysage
Twitter:  www.twitter.com/becky_sage
Website:  www.beckysage.com 

Connect with Joyann Boyce

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joyannboyce/

Twitter: https://twitter.com/joyannboyce

 
Connect with The Social Detail 

Making inclusive marketing the industry standard

Website: https://www.thesocialdetail.com/

Twitter: @thesocialdetail

Instagram: @thesocialdetail

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/thesocialdetail/

Transcript

Amy Armstrong: 0:04

Welcome to mindstyling, the podcast that explores how we can win that the game inside our heads and make a mark on this world in our own unique style. On

Dr Becky Sage: 0:14

our own terms, we interview entrepreneurs and leaders who aren't afraid to push the boundaries and set their own definitions of success. We will share with you the tips and techniques they use to style their mind and give you the tools you need to start mind styling for yourself. Hello, Mindstylists. I'm Dr. Becky Sage,

Amy Armstrong: 0:39

and I am Amy Armstrong,

Dr Becky Sage: 0:41

and we are delighted today to be joined by Joyann Boyce. Joyann is an inclusive marketing consultant and founder of the social detail. The company works with SMEs within the technology sector to maximise their impact through social media. The social detail has worked with a range of organisations including Coke, GB, Adobe XD setsquared future space, and in her three years of running the agency Joyann has placed data and inclusion at the heart of our approach to marketing, from idea to creation to reviewing and consumption. Joyann is a fierce advocate for diversity and inclusion within marketing and tech and seeing a gap in the stock photo market. She partnered with the shift projects to create a portfolio of diverse stock photography. This project was featured on the BBC. She's currently a data fellow with the Southwest creative Technology Network researching how bias within data can be positively used to benefit marginalised groups. The fellowship is allowing her to connect her two passions for data and diversity by exploring the depths of data and machine learning. Her research shows that when dealing with AI, the primary focus has been on trying to eliminate any bias in it. Instead, he believes we can more learn more about creating unbiased machines by flipping the bias in favour of marginalised groups and then comparing the outcomes. Why would you I am there's so much to dig into here and so much I want to talk about I feel like we're so lucky to have you on board with us. But before we get too, too deep into AI and bias and data and how we use it around inclusion. And could you tell us a little bit about your entrepreneurial journey and how you got to where you are right now?

Joyann Boyce: 2:24

Oh, wow. I always say it kind of started by accident in the sense of I didn't want to start a business because I had always seen family members start businesses but not necessarily be successful. So after University studying psychology, I went travelling for a while and came back and I was like, Okay, I'm an adult now time to make some money. What jobs make money. I didn't want to give seven years of my life to the NHS to be a clinical psychologist. So I decided to go into recruitment and hated recruitment. Absolutely with a passion. But I liked LinkedIn. And I just found a knack for LinkedIn. And then I started helping like things to keep my energy going at the job, I started helping charities and stuff with social media. And after that, and leaving recruitment, I moved back to Bristol, because that was in London. And I was just like, okay, I want to get a job doing this for people and being a social media manager. I just learned what it was. And the one thing when you study psychology at university, they always tell you, because you study people you can do any job you want, everything is possible. And I believed them. However, trying to get into a marketing agency or a marketing role without any marketing experience proved to be very difficult. So just kind of continued helping charities and small organisations and then I stumbled upon the Prince's Trust. And they kind of helped me answer my questions. At the time, I was very concerned about what would happen if I tweeted something and the company I tweeted it for sued me. That was my biggest concern at the time. Now I laugh because it's like, not even a thing to worry about. There's bigger things, me adding a fund for insurance, they helped me get a laptop helped me get going. And that was kind of the start of programme hopping for myself. So from there, I went to the Natwest business accelerator. From there I went on to Get Set for growth and then Tech Spark's Spark School Project and now I'm on the Fellowship. So programme from programme and it's been kind of changing and developing the business offering and constantly pivoting but keeping the need wanting to help people aligned.

Amy Armstrong: 4:49

So the need to wanting to help people aligned. Where has that ended you so where are you now as a fellow of the South West creative programme

Joyann Boyce: 5:00

Now I'm trying to help people quite niche at mass. So one of the things I kind of realise is a lot of algorithms. And a lot of the software's I work with, because I'm a self proclaimed software addict, like if there's a productivity software or any tool out there, I've probably tried it. But there was always a lack, there was always someone missing in their marketing, the way they advertised it. And it was always a thing of when I would speak to specifically black business owners, they weren't aware of all these things. And I was like, how do you not know, and I started to look and be like, oh, they're not marketing to anyone. They're missing people out. And also, from my experience, trying to find stock images, to just represent myself or my website, because when you start a business, you have no money to pay for these things. And it just wasn't able to find it on the big ol internet, that's all around the world, I wasn't able to find stock images of a woman, a black woman's hands on keyboards. So now I'm just like, okay, I want to help and I want to change things in my lane for the long term. And that's, that's where I'm at with the whole AI bias algorithm situation.

Dr Becky Sage: 6:05

Because what's interesting to you obviously, did psychology and people was very much the focus, but you really have done a lot in technology. So at what point? Did you Did you do any specific training around that? Or is this just something that you've, you've developed for yourself over time,

Joyann Boyce: 6:22

I've actually been exploring that. So I think I've always been, like, techie nerd. For a while, I just didn't really know it. I finally with a few friends, I was like the guys, I'm embracing my nerd side. And it's like what you mean embracing, it's always been there. But I do have a memory of one of my mom's friends saying that whenever people a new device, or new thing, or new gadget, he would always bring it to me as like a young child, because I would always figure out how to use it before reading the manual. And just getting into things and trying to understand how they work or trying to find shortcuts of things I think has always been a thread. And probably the psychology was trying to figure out people to the same extent I can figure out tech people are more complicated. But the puzzle aspects always been interested to me,

Amy Armstrong: 7:09

the part of your story that immediately pricked my ears up was the fact that you hated recruitment, but loved LinkedIn. And to keep your energy up in your job, you started helping charities. And so obviously, there was a natural draw to the social media, the tech side of things, and the people. I love that insight, though, to keep my energy up,

Joyann Boyce: 7:32

it was so baffling. So I was recruiting and had to build a desk into legal compliance, but was baffling to me is that I would get these amazing candidates that didn't come from redbrick universities, but their CVS was exceptional. Their presentation style was in great, so I would help them with it, then I would go back to my desk, and my supervisor would like be mad at me for helping to develop people. And I said, I don't understand. And it was like, Oh, you need to get your call time up. And like, but my clients are busy, my candidates are busy, I'm getting information, everyone's happy. Why do I need to spend more time on the phone if I'm getting the same results. So it was so many benchmarks that baffled me, and a lot of it now I can look back and clearly see that some of it was racism, some of it was sexism. But at the time, I wasn't aware of any of that. I was just confused as to why Tom would spend an hour on the phone talking about football, and get praised for his call time. But I would spend 30 minutes talking to like 15 different people and get in trouble for it.

Dr Becky Sage: 8:35

I think that that how fascinating I mean, because obviously now you're looking at bias in technology, but actually that's in itself that highlights some of the key things, which is what are the metrics we use to define success? And how are they being used? You know, favour certain people over over other people. And it seems like you experienced that in that environment. And that was what was going on there that there was a there were metrics and and they were working against certain people and working for other people.

Joyann Boyce: 9:05

Definitely. And it's something that I've embraced in the agency in the sense of I just want to know when the results, I'm very much with the team. Okay, this is what needs to get done. Tell me when you can get that done by I don't necessarily need to know hours or exact times or anything like that, or how you do it. I just need to know when you can get it done by because that's the main focus. And yeah, and I'm always transparent. I even had just had a call with our graphic designer. I was like, Okay, this is what the budget is, this is how much I want you to do this for. Can you deliver in that time? Yes or no whatever to shave off. So everyone in the team already knows how much profit we're making. They know there's nothing hidden in terms of Oh, I'm trying to get the most out of this person's hours or this person day rate. It's okay. He has everything laid out. This is what we're doing.

Dr Becky Sage: 9:55

Yeah, and they say in an inclusive recruiting that this is an interview. approaches Well, the idea of what are the objectives? Not? What are the kind of preconceived notions by by which you think somebody might achieve those objectives. But by being transparent about this, what we've got, this is what we're aiming for, how can you help us to get there? And what are you going to do to do it? The I'm interested in, you said that you've sort of seen a lot of your family go through various businesses, and you're like, I don't want to be an entrepreneur. Because I've seen that, and then you have got to some point when you weren't, okay, I'm setting up the social detail. Can you tell us about what what that jumping off point was? Like? What really made?

Joyann Boyce: 10:41

In hindsight, it paints such a different picture. So I saw one of my cousin's struggling a lot. He tried to start various businesses. And at the time, we were helping with accommodation, my mother and I. And I was just like, I don't get it. I don't get why you're not successful. I don't you have the knowledge. But you're talking and saying that you're meeting all these people. And as a teenager at the time, I'm like, I don't get why. So in my head, I had painted that cousin as a failure. And now going into the industry going into because he was in it, but he was more IT Support, was the business he was trying to build. And I'm like, Oh, the cart was stacked against you. That's why it wasn't that you weren't working enough. It wasn't that you weren't trying the cards were stacked. And you're going into these things, and not knowing the rules not knowing the game. So I definitely look back and I was like, I wish I was nicer to him about that whole process. No, I'd be like you and I don't make some money that I literally said that to him. Oh,

Dr Becky Sage: 11:39

so when it came to you starting your business? How did you kind of overcome some of those feelings? because presumably, you had high expectations? Yeah,

Joyann Boyce: 11:48

it was a it was a really difficult situation, something I knew. And going into it. As soon as I started, like talking to other people who are under Prince's Trust programme and what they were doing, I was like, Okay, this is this very much a network thing very much who you know, so I was craving a mentor. And that's kind of how my decision, one almost didn't happen. But then further on went to happen. So through the Prince's Trust, you get to like, interview the mentors before you partner with them. Because a year long relationship. And the first mentor I interviewed, I'll never forget, and I don't have any issue. His name was Bob, Bob's a very common name, it could be anyone. But he said to me, the only way I'd be successful at the social media thing is if I did it, for car salesmen and window cleaners, and this was the first I was meeting with anyone professional, anyone who had experience, I took that for Bible, I went home, and I was just like, you do, don't you? This is what I'm gonna, I don't want to do it. I was like, I'm not gonna do I hate it. I'm never gonna do this anymore. I don't want to Window Cleaning, there's no thing to cry about, it was not fascinating to me. So I went back. And I asked for a different mentor. To this day, I'm just like, Don't let anyone talk to Bob.

Dr Becky Sage: 13:16

And you're so right, that has happened to me so many times before with, with people who have been kind of presented to me as these people or experts or advisors or mentors, and, and you do take it as Bible lead that what you just said, and it's I think, being able to go in and treat it as if you are interviewing them, which of course it is that that was the process anyway. It's not always the case, is a really important thing, because they've got to be the right fit for you. And that, I mean, good job, it was so obvious that that was not a good fit.

Joyann Boyce: 13:51

It wasn't like there were two days of literally, me and Netflix thinking okay, so because the jerk is a teenager, with my friends and I were an obviously this is very controversial, not PG. We might as well get knocked up and work on McDonald's. That was like the line we use to each other.

Amy Armstrong: 14:11

That's empowering. Yeah.

Joyann Boyce: 14:14

I looking back, I think the government was a lot more generous back then supporting single mom. So to us, it was like, you know, if you're gonna try, just go do that. You know, now, you will be helpful. But

Amy Armstrong: 14:28

so what's the secret to a mentor that helped you with the mentor that you finally paired with or mentors that have gone on to be really important to you?

Joyann Boyce: 14:39

And I think now it's recognising you need to have things in common with your mentor. So the one I ended up finding the princess dress. I walked into the meeting and I had a book in my hand, the Seven Habits of Highly Effective People.

Amy Armstrong: 14:53

Oh, yeah. And

Joyann Boyce: 14:54

yeah, he's literally, he saw the book and he was just like, ah. And then the conversation started and everything was based on that book. So even though we didn't have things in common in terms of life makes, sometimes you talk to me about the horsey parts own, and I'm just like, haha, you own a horse? What, what, what is this. But for the two years, like, he was able to refer back to that book and translate things into knowledge and really helped me to pick things down. And that was really beneficial. And now my mentor Now, his drive, which is one of my drivers, which is about getting black people paid. And he's very much on the, what is the benefit to you? What is the benefit to the greater community you want to help? And how does this balance with all your goals, and like he very much balances that back into everything? Because I will come up with these big ideas that Yeah, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do that. And, huh, how are you going to get paid? I'm like, No, no, no, don't worry about that bit. I'm gonna do it. So yeah. So from those two, and then I have like mentors that I just kind of follow. And like, Zahra is a mentor to me, whether she knows it or not. And just pull information from their stories and everything they're doing. And I try and learn from their journeys.

Dr Becky Sage: 16:15

I think that what you were saying about you want to make an impact, and you get all these big ideas. And you and it's so easy to want to run with all those things. And then of course, we've, you know, we need money to live, that's really important. So do you feel like that's a real mindset shift that you've had to

Joyann Boyce: 16:34

go through? And I'm continuously going through it, it's very much an ongoing process, something they teach us to us at NatWest business accelerator was fixed and growth mindset. And I already knew I had a growth mindset. Because I was travelling, I went to South America and ended up running a hospital for six months, because I was just had so many ideas that I would implement. So the owner of the hospital was like, Okay, here you go. Here's all the volunteers. Here's the keys, I'm gonna go to my new flat and it's like what I was already knew. I had the growth mindset in terms of adventure, and in terms of doing things and really getting stuff done. But finances and managing people and that side of things is something that I need to learn it took me a while to figure out that that's also a growth area.

Dr Becky Sage: 17:25

And something that Jaya talked about is so especially when we want impact, I think that we've really got to think about where is the money going to come from and and you've got very consciously be thinking about finance and impact and the structure of that. And I know the way Jaya talked about it was actually that she's got two businesses and one of them is ultimately the the business where she's making an impact. It's where her passion lies. That's her kind of heart driven project. But she's she brings money in through and through the other business. And, and that's the way she set it up. So have you had to think about it in a very conscious way like that in terms of Okay, how do I how do I construct this business in such a way that I get the impact I want to see, but I also make the money that means that we can do the work we want,

Joyann Boyce: 18:14

I very much battled with the whole phrase of being labelled activists, and someone who's doing diversity inclusion. I remember having a conversation with someone, early first year to business, I was like, I do not want to become the diversity person for Bristol about marketing. Two years later, I am sad person. But I always made sure that I back to my message. And like, I realised that I say it so much about paying people for their knowledge and their wisdom, even if it's their lived experience, that when people approached me for any diversity consultancy, they start with the money. And I'm just like, oh, okay, this is this is getting across now, like people are aware of it. If I'm going to preach it, you can't approach me with the same. Oh, we just want to be nice. And we want to help us like there's no, there's no long term development, if it's just the kindness of our hearts, like, does this there's no growth there. So yeah, I just make sure there's always some kind of Win win.

Dr Becky Sage: 19:12

Yeah. And this is a question we've asked a few people No, but this year, we've obviously seen a lot of change. A lot of according to some of our other guests, there's been a lot more appetite from people to really well be paying for the expertise, especially around diversity and inclusion. Is that something you've observed over 2020

Joyann Boyce: 19:31

and one of the things that I realised I was craving for by ready to find it this year, is diversity and inclusion is a sectors within itself and there's avenues and lanes. And I always make sure whenever anyone approaches me, I'm like, I do marketing inclusion. That's my lane. I'm not going to talk to you about HR hiring policy. I'm not going to talk to you about reverse mentoring sometimes. And that's not my area. If you want to talk about marketing, let's talk about that. A sectors within itself. So the same way, accounting and all these other things are sectors and you have people that specialise in areas, the same way people should approach diversity inclusion, and I feel like 2020 is getting that insight and that awareness out there, because that opportunity to work with Coca Cola GB came through all of the situation, I always found it difficult speaking about it, because there's a lot of people who have gained success who needed it and should have had it long before this, but it took someone dying again. And the recognition of that person down around the world and the protests, for George Floyd for people to actually start seeing Okay, Rene's book should be a best seller is like no, it should have been already. And a lot of people who work in the field with battling this hole, yes, we're getting bookings. And we're getting I know someone who's planning to close the business down. And off the back of the protests business, the more successful she's hired five people is still a I don't want to say bittersweet because that sounds too small. It's a heavy hearted aspect.

Dr Becky Sage: 21:10

Yeah, it feels like a very heavy load to carry the Oh, my successes is been because somebody's been murdered is is not a is not an easy thing to carry. And of course, it's far more complex than that. But I think I can understand where you're coming from.

Amy Armstrong: 21:30

What is it that you've noticed as a shift in attitude over the recent months that has resulted in for instance, your friend's business? Having a new wave? What What do you think the the effect has been?

Joyann Boyce: 21:47

I think people are now looking at diversity inclusion as a cake. They're now looking at layers, and then what people learning the now I can walk into meetings and say intersectionality and they're like, Yeah, uh huh. Whereas before, I'd be like, What are you talking about? What on earth? Ha, I thought we black people over here. Not even black people. Sorry, been over here. Disabled people over here. Why? Why do we cross the two? Or, but now it's like, No, no, this black disabled Lives Matters black queer lives matter. And there's a lot more effort to look beyond just having unconscious bias training. I think that's where the attitudes change. I think also the attitudes change in the sense of people are willing to do the work and start the process. Going back to that consultancy, they had already done a lot of work around Black Lives Matter and protests, when they were thinking about a marketing campaign, they wanted me to come in to look over and like, give them a sanity check instead, rather than to come in and create it all for them. So people are a lot more willing right now to do the work, especially around campaigns. And there, they may not like it, but that getting used to being cooled on the arrows and being held accountable publicly.

Dr Becky Sage: 23:07

And there was a bit of a concern that it was going to be, you know, the blackout Tuesday happened, and it was going to be kind of a bit of a one and done and it was like, okay, we've done nothing. What we're actually what we need is sustainable change. Do you think that we're seeing something that is bit a bit more of a long term change now? Yes,

Joyann Boyce: 23:25

and is a different one, because the beautiful thing about blackout Tuesday, is that it put a marketing accountability out there. People, people went back to certain brand accounts and was like, Oh, your squares gone? or hit the things you said under that post are not happening. What's the update? What's the report, it led to a level of transparency that has never been seen before. And I think that's what one that's what social media is you need to be transparent about your business in order to really engage and show that you're human behind the brand. And being able to have blackout choose and people committing certain things is allowing for people to come back around now and be like, okay, you said you're going to do X, how's how's that going? Whereas before, it was just a, we're going to strive to be better. At what,

Amy Armstrong: 24:18

huh? Yeah. So it's actual action being taken. And I think people are owning up to their, their gaps in knowledge and understanding. So they're, they're leaning into understanding and a more practical, pragmatic way and starting to then step forward and do things not just pay lip service. I'm hoping I'm hoping. Well, I've

Dr Becky Sage: 24:41

definitely seen that in the businesses that I'm working with. And even even in the kind of more education settings as well is that when a lot more people are aware now the values are on nothing if it's just a word that that is actually about what are the behaviours that are You, you need to take, or you need to, you need to show that you need to be demonstrating to show that you're living up to that value. And even that kind of business leadership level, having those

Joyann Boyce: 25:08

And that's the beautiful thing about inclusive open conversations, okay? We say that inclusion is one of our values, what does that actually mean? What behaviour Do we need to demonstrate, to show, you know, to to make that happen to actually live our values and, and I'm definitely seeing that more in the conversations that I've been involved in. But again, you know, you it's difficult you to know what bubbles you're in. And, and I think when you're more aware of something, then you see it more often. So I'm also conscious of that. And I guess that's why it's important for us to all continue to be having the conversations and repeat, repeat, repeat. Because it's just because we know it in our little bubbles doesn't mean that it's it's happening everywhere. marketing. And the whole ethics behind it is that it's for these things to become norm is for these things to just be part of a process and be that representation is visually seen. And with brands committing to do these things publicly. It's making marketing and content creation richer, because you have something of value to it's not just oh, here's some shoes. No, it's the let's put some layers behind it. Let's look at our language, okay, we tend to use language, or we tend to jump on things that are trendy within the black community, but we never hire any black models. Let's fix that. Let's actually make an effort to connect with that we're taking this content from

Dr Becky Sage: 26:39

Yeah. So following on from that, when you're working with clients, what are the things that really light you up?

Joyann Boyce: 26:47

So various, many a strain. But when I'm working with clients generally, normally, it's when I tell them a software that does something that they thought they had to do manually, and their face, and I can just literally see stress. Like, it's I love seeing even now we're not doing things physically anymore, but seeing it over video where they're just like, hold on, I can automate that. And like, yes, yes. And you get to extra. So that always brings me joy, because they really didn't believe me when I tell them about the software. The other thing is a general interest to do the work. So a lot of the recommendations I give whenever doing inclusive marketing workshops, is to find your intersectional opposite in your industry. Because a lot of people when they dive into inclusive marketing, they're just like, yeah, we're gonna follow an activist that does disability activism and like, No, no, no, you work in the oil and environmental sector, find an activist that's concerned about disability in that sector. make the effort to find someone because then the content relevant use not just content you're flying over, because yes, everyone deserve rights, but you need to know what the situation is in your sector. So you can empower change.

Dr Becky Sage: 28:01

And that comes back to that idea you're talking about with with layers, it's really getting people to unpick things and and delve deeper and not just kind of taking the easy maybe the most obvious, or the most visible option to them. Yes,

Amy Armstrong: 28:14

it's the most meaningful,

Joyann Boyce: 28:16

it's making the effort.

Dr Becky Sage: 28:17

So when you when you are lit up what how does how does that manifest for you? Do you find that you kind of get highly energised and that that really propels you forward to to want to do even more

Joyann Boyce: 28:30

I get excited and I start seeing solutions and energy. But one of the things I've had to learn about myself is I my friends and I call it like 2.0 when I am in a public setting or I am presenting or doing anything it drains me so I get excited I get very enthusiastic yeah very yes this is amazing that the day and then after that just need to go and like decompress in a bubble. And just like sit inside just calm calm myself down because I am trying to figure out why it goes to such extreme because sometimes I'm very chill like right now I'm very chilled with a blanket. But after I'd still feel like I've run a mission or run a mile Yeah, I

Dr Becky Sage: 29:19

we get it I think your friend David I have that trait a little bit as well. very energetic that you really show up when you're around other people and you put everything into it and I and that can be incredibly draining as well. And so what what do you do to recharge those batteries? Um,

Joyann Boyce: 29:38

so I'm trying to do the combination of things. One thing I started this year was therapy and that has been ridiculously helpful to understand how much of the weight of the world I put on my shoulders and also the strength in my words, which is stuff I always believed. But of late I continuously say oh the world's on fire and Like, I need to stop saying that because I'm acting like it is. And I'm getting anxious all the time. So yeah, positive words, I'm currently I said,

Amy Armstrong: 30:07

Oh, isn't that interesting? The power of your words, and you being in marketing, which is about so much about communication, and then the power of your words, for you personally,

Joyann Boyce: 30:20

I've literally had to just push positivity onto myself.

Dr Becky Sage: 30:24

What kind of therapy? Are you having? If you don't mind answering that question? And, and how was it? How did you find a therapist?

Joyann Boyce: 30:32

So the type of therapy she mentioned, I can't remember. But there's a lot of mention of feelings. So one thing she's like in this type of therapy I talk about feelings. Okay. How I found her was an organisation called frontline therapy, which finds black and brown people, affordable black and brown therapists. Because I just know there's a lot of things in my work, where I'm very conscious of how I speak and what I say and who I'm talking to, that I need to be able to say certain phrases, and the person realised that I mean, no offence. And so that's why it was very important for me to find a black woman therapists for those reasons, because sometimes, I remember one of the calls, I jumped on and I was, just like, white privilege is a lot of work. And she just kind of like, Uh huh. And went on to How were you? I was like, Okay.

Dr Becky Sage: 31:31

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Amy Armstrong: 31:35

Oh, how wonderful that you found someone that really resonates with you. Because it's the, it's the relationship between the therapist and the client, that I, I think it accounts for, you know, 70 75% of the success of the therapeutic experience for the client. It's about whether that connection is there. It's I mean, it's similar to the Met, the mentor scenario is chemistry, it's whether you're on the same page speaking, a language that that works for both of you.

Dr Becky Sage: 32:08

And it's, I guess that, like you said, that shared, that there's something shared with you know, background, cultural, maybe there are some things that just don't need to be spoken quite so much. When you've when you've got that that same experience. So you the, if you have to kind of explain everything, I know, this has happened to me when I in various different scenarios and, and with, with mentors, with therapists, where you it's not a good fit, and you're, you're kind of having to go back to first principles, if that's like, I don't know if that's a good way of explaining it, but and explain yourself, right, from every single little experience, and they're having to maybe cognitively understand that instead of just being able to pick up on it and understand where you're coming from, because they've had similar experiences. And I think it's probably worth I'm sure a lot of listeners feel this as well. Did you have to try it a few different people on it? Or because of maybe Maybe it was because of your previous mentoring experience that you were like, No, I know what I need right now. And I'm gonna go

Joyann Boyce: 33:13

in terms of working with people, I can tell quite early on now, if I'm going to vibe with someone or not. And a lot of it is basic stuff. Like I prefer to say black and brown rather than BAMe. So if I'm talking to someone, and the work we're doing, especially with the software and the research, I remember I spoke to someone and they just avoided saying the word black when they're talking about black people and I'm just like, Okay, this is not gonna, this is gonna, I'm not going to hear what you're saying, cuz I'm going to be annoyed that I haven't said the word. Why it's not a swear word. Sorry, reliving the moment right now. Yeah. And then just people's level of transparency and open openness. Because I'm very transparent with what I do. I like I always say, I like people to work in a replaceable manner, I don't need you to tell me every single detail. But if someone was to step in your shoes, or if someone had to take over while you were not around, you've left a breadcrumb trail. And I also want people who I'm kind of balancing this as well with hiring new people. I want people who are hungry for success. But in hiring a team and start incident I need them to be hungry, but I also kind of need to know how long they're going to be around.

Dr Becky Sage: 34:25

Oh, interesting. Yeah. That is such an interesting balance when you're building a team and when you're a small company, and you really do need those people to step up and, and understand where you are as a business. How have you navigated that

Joyann Boyce: 34:40

I'm still figuring that one out. I'm always halfway through, almost everyone has side projects and everything they're doing, and I send them work related to their side projects, and then get frustrated when they can't do the work I want them to do when I wanted to do it. I was like, hold on. Wait. I'm causing the problem

Dr Becky Sage: 34:59

is a strict Though isn't it because sometimes with with your team, sometimes success is seeing them go off and thrive in something else. You know, it might not be exactly what you need to do what, what, you know, in the business that you're doing. But at the same time, I certainly felt this with with my team, when when people have gone off and done really amazing things from the platform that that you've given them and the help that you've given them. That that can be a really rewarding thing as well.

Amy Armstrong: 35:28

And also, of course, if they are happy, and they feel valued by you and understood and connected, they are going to be operating at a far higher level when they are working on your work. It's just that balance, isn't it, keeping them in the team being amazing, rather than leaving, leaving you early?

Joyann Boyce: 35:47

It's a hard balance, especially when I also whatever, whatever rate they're on with me, I will tell them to appear elsewhere. Like Dammit, I'm really working against myself here.

Amy Armstrong: 36:00

Money relationship with money, it's really interesting one for you. Because actually, you were talking about way back when when you're a teenager and your cousin was struggling and you're like, come on, you're an adult earn some money. You're saying that to your team? In a sense, you're like, come on, you're worth it up your value. And it sounds like a very empowering relationship with money.

Dr Becky Sage: 36:23

What what

Amy Armstrong: 36:23

how would you describe it?

Joyann Boyce: 36:25

Um, so yeah, that's the part that I have empowering others my most important, but even with myself, there's also a semi fear of it. Or I don't know, I'm still trying to figure that one out. Because I was so used to travelling and living a kind of butterfly lifestyle where, you know, you can be different in a hostel here where you can be doing this or doing that, what COVID, and the whole lockdown has allowed me to really see is exactly what my monthly finances and expenses are, and what's consistent, and I was just like, Okay, I need to actually get stable with this part, and not fluctuate as much. So I guess the empowering of others is kind of what I need for myself is like, do it Go on, charge more? It's fine. It'll work out.

Amy Armstrong: 37:19

Yeah. What would you your message be to young entrepreneurs starting out now, who haven't had the benefit of the depth of experience and years that you have under your belt around this relationship with charging their true value?

Joyann Boyce: 37:35

What I do now, and what I wish I started doing was gamify it a little bit in the sense of play chicken with your prices. sounds bad. There's also obviously you need to market and figure out what the sector is, but of recent, sometimes I would put a quote out and I'll be like, yeah, they're gonna say no. And then they say, yes, some say, oh, okay, maybe I can up it. And you just keep doing that until you get someone that says no, and the no is fine. The no just tells you that that's your cap for now. And you're gonna get a yes, on that number. When you figure out something, there's something that's not matching the number to the Yes. It's not you, it's very much a them thing. And you just have to translate that message properly.

Dr Becky Sage: 38:19

I love that tip. I that's what I started to do. When you're like, Is it because it's a definitely a struggle for a lot of people in a lot of entrepreneurs and, and freelancers as well, what's my pricing? What's my value? Is link between self worth and money and and exactly what you said, gamify it, turn it into a game, turn it into an exploration that that's that's when I had a breakthrough as well. And, and it really makes a difference. And I think it gives you some disconnects. Actually, it disconnects that idea of your self worth with what that person is willing to pay for something. And I think often that's the biggest barrier that we put into ourselves is, oh, well, I'm not worth this or the things I do are not really worth this. But if you can disconnect the two things and and just play that kind of game and get curious then then that can be very powerful. I think you also to do that you have to believe that there is other opportunities out there. So it's also about not putting all your eggs in that one basket or, or thinking just that that single client is going to make and break your business. Would you say that's true?

Joyann Boyce: 39:29

My I always have a word for the year and my word for 2020 was wealth and all forms and aspects. Wow, just wealth and opportunity and family and finances or relationships. And just also learning to value myself and seeing myself as wealthy. So there's always opportunities you can say no to something and something else will come and once they start coming as well as also learning when you can and can't achieve something I remember actually Becky In regards to the women Innovation Award, I was like, Yes, I'm gonna be able to fill that in, I'm gonna be able to see the application. It was midnight, when I was drinking a cup of coffee, trying to fill it in as like you may watch. Next time

Dr Becky Sage: 40:17

it will come again. It'll be fine.

Joyann Boyce: 40:21

Coffee, drinking coffee at midnight. What

Amy Armstrong: 40:23

I love though, is you signed up to that now I'm worthy of this women and Innovation Award. It's just actually I've got other things on my on my plate right now. And I've got to choose which ones I'm going to put my energies in because there's a finite amount of hours in the day and energy and the time.

Dr Becky Sage: 40:41

Yeah, just thinking about that idea of recharging and, and things that when you have when you do feel drained or place maybe overwhelmed. You've got lots of conflicting priorities. Are you good at giving yourself time to decompress? And say no? Or is that something that, that you're like? No, I just run with all the things, all the opportunities,

Joyann Boyce: 41:05

I go to ups and downs with that because sometimes I'm very committed in terms of my assistant says I'm the most scheduled and organised client she has, and I don't think I am. So it's, it's peaks and flows. But I tried to make sure I was even working at home always have an hour lunch. I recently bought a Nintendo Switch to buy Animal Crossing classes that if I commit to grooming and caring for an island, I had to look after them. Like I haven't seen my anime two weeks. This is really bad right now. And to you, this is another thing. It's like having a kid but you know, when I look in, and they're like, we haven't seen you in a while. I'm like, oh, okay, I'm not, I'm not taking care of my mental health.

Dr Becky Sage: 41:50

You just reminded me as well. Just a quick shout out to our previous guests. Shivani, bright low, because she's just released an app for which which is similar to theirs got there are some similarities that way where you have to look after your guardian. And it's a game that's been designed for tablets for kids who are five plus. And I was playing on it this morning. But you just reminded me of it. And that idea of kind of taking care of something else to take care of mental health. So yeah, little little shout out for Shivani because obviously, she was one of our previous guests. So yeah, you should check that one out to

Amy Armstrong: 42:27

beat Yes, it's this idea of self care and taking yourself away from the craziness of focus and a commitment to your business requirements and actually giving yourself equal measure of commitment to your own self care. And that idea of looking after others as part of it is actually for looking after others than we can't be just having our nose to the grindstone. Have you ever thought about getting a real animal?

Joyann Boyce: 42:59

So I did, I babysat my friend's dog for two days. And that's when I realised I can't physical things that rely even plants now. I'm too inconsistent with my level of care about them. just kept looking at me Yeah, I fed you I have walked you like yeah,

Dr Becky Sage: 43:27

I gather for the plants. So just to you know, because all our previous guests, you skipped the Madeira. The garden? Do Yeah. When they need watering, get that I've managed that. Actually, I've managing plants right now. But I certainly don't want pets. I yeah, I get my relaxation from doing my work in a nice, like measured way. I don't want to have to look after

Amy Armstrong: 43:55

children and animals complicate that rhythm. And as your friend's dog did they look at you and they go, hi, not now. I really need you now.

Joyann Boyce: 44:09

But the beautiful thing sometimes I get my god-daughter who's now 13 and we can hang out and then her phone buzzes and she ignores me. And I feel offended at first and I'm like, hold on. No, this is time to do other things. So I think I even prefer kids over animals. You can't put an eye notice is really bad and I'm probably going to change my mind when I'm a parent competent animal in front of YouTube and leave

Dr Becky Sage: 44:39

me Have you tried that

Amy Armstrong: 44:40

YouTube isn't it a good bone does

Dr Becky Sage: 44:49

good bang. Not a chicken bone for Labradors

Amy Armstrong: 44:55

sustainable something or other man made. toy? Real bone because they With

Joyann Boyce: 45:01

upholstery. And on the planet from my two cactuses I have, I'm doing that well. And I'm just like, if I can keep a cactus alive, I'm not gonna get like an orchid or anything. Yeah,

Dr Becky Sage: 45:17

sure, I've been through that journey. One day, you might manage like a spider plot or something.

Amy Armstrong: 45:23

Maybe finding the plant for you and your environment. And your cat just might not be doing very well, because you've been over watering it. So just just be kind to yourself and curious about the right plant.

Dr Becky Sage: 45:39

So So this does lead to another question. I actually wanted to ask a kind of social media slash media type question, which is, a lot of people are they kind of steer clear of social media or or they maybe they label themselves as not necessarily good or bad. But I know certainly like I I find it in enjoyable to use online tools and use that as a way to connect with people and express myself tell my story. Do you think that you've wound up working in this area? Because it's, it's something that you enjoy doing? And you kind of get get enjoyment from connecting with people online? No.

Joyann Boyce: 46:25

I am paying for the change the thing that people hate about it, the fact that I can log on to Instagram or Twitter tomorrow, and something be completely different, that every day is literally like the software would update. And I have no idea. I remember I was given a workshop on social media basics. And I got to the slide around figuring out how you analytics on Instagram, telling people how to find like, it's not there. And during the workshop, to go in and learn it, because it updated that day. The connective, The thing I find with social. So at first, when I first started, I was pretty bad. I had all my client accounts on my phone, all my notifications on, I was always online, because I felt like I needed to be, even though a lot of the work actually happens offline and spreadsheets because that's a bit no one ever says yeah. Now, yeah, well, my notifications are off, I don't have any social accounts on my home screen, I have to search for them. And I don't have any client accounts on my phone. So I enjoy the change workwise. But in terms of personal use, I've just curated my spaces to suit my interests, which I know can be dangerous in terms of advertising. But a lot of people don't enjoy Twitter, but I enjoy it because I've my Twitter is full of black means black tech, Twitter, General tech, techie stuff, people obsessed with productivity tools. So I can scroll on that and it will take me a good 510 minutes scrolling on Twitter to find out something horrible has happened in the world. People I follow on top.

Dr Becky Sage: 48:06

So actually, this may be a good time to segue into into the projects you're working on. I was very fascinated to, to read what you're saying about the work around bias in an AI and actually kind of shifting this approach and saying Actually, let's let's lean into it and see what we can find out by by marketing to very specific demographics. Can you can you tell us a little bit more about that and and what you're learning through that project?

Joyann Boyce: 48:34

Yeah, so what I found through all my, like research in a lot of people were getting upset with Facebook because of his targeting, and how you can ultra target and remove people. But while working as marketing manager for the Blackwell convention, that was beneficial. Being able to target the people specifically we're looking for is beneficial, and it has its positives. And so I was starting to think, Okay, what if we can use these positives to inform people? What if it was a way that you can put out a campaign informing, let's take America for not always the best example. But take America, for example, if a state was going to have a vote on legislations around gay marriage, if you can put out a campaign telling people the benefits and then targeting people and supporting then you can cause change. However, what's currently being used as a negative aspect of that trying to sway people to for certain particular particular parties trying to disinformation out there. So I wanted to approach in a sense of, yes, all this stuff and all these algorithms are being used to keep marginalised people down. How can we flip it to use to the benefit because a lot of organisations that are looking at changing these things are looking at doing it in the most ethical way and the most good, they want to leave by example, but what I'm saying is, why don't we just take the 30 tools other team is using and use it against them, we can get there quicker. So one of the things I learned around like machine learning and algorithms I kind of dived into how does this even happen? How did we get to the point where certain people aren't seeing job ads? Because they have a certain type of name? And looking at what stages Can we try to edit and sway the balance in that whole process. And it's not just the endpoint, it's not just saying, Oh, we need to have more black people and more disabled people in the data. It's the whole pipeline. It's the data, it's the cleaning, it's the training the models, every point needs to have heavily weighted in those who are not represented. Yeah. And you can tell in the end that wasn't considered with the recent Twitter image crop situation. Twitter's algorithm was changed to crop images on faces or what they deem as important. They said, when this was discovered that it was mainly cropping to white faces, or males, that they tested for bias, when they first rolled it out. What made me question it was like, what, what bias Did you test for and to the test that everyone's doing online, are still very male and white focused. So I did my own test, we using models from the Fenty beauty campaign, very small tests using the images. But what I found is it seems that one, the algorithm is not able to differentiate between skin tone shades that are similar. They're recognisable to the human eye, but it's very much your Twitter algorithm. You're either white, mixed, or a little bit brown, I wouldn't even say black, because it wouldn't recognise the deepest skin tone at all. It would rather choose black space and choose her face, which also baffled me. So then not testing and looking at things throughout. And we're a platform like Twitter, where it was even I think it was 2010, or some point, a company released a chat bot, and within an hour, Twitter was able to make that chat bot racist and sexist. So if you know your platform is capable of changing algorithms that quickly why you're not checking your own. Yeah. So it's really exploring as research and then what I want to do is essentially, find a way to use what we know is wrong to identify what is wrong. Because we have all this information, we already know that all this data is out there, we already know, if we put a chat bot out how fast it will take to make it racist and sexist, how fast would it make it take to make it positive? Or how like, how can we flip these things? and use it to the benefit? It's a mission, but I'm enjoying the journey? Yeah,

Dr Becky Sage: 53:00

I know, it's a mission that a lot of us are going to need to take out in the businesses we're running and things that we're doing. And I what I'd like to get a bit more information on is how, as we mentioned before, you know, you had Yes, you've kind of always been intrigued and technical in in many aspects and problem solving in you want to get to the depths of things. But again, you have the this people focused background. If people wanted to understand this better, like we know it's a problem. And we know that we all need to be part of making a change is specifically in terms of understanding machine learning AI data, what algorithms are doing, what bias is a built in? would use? Have you got any tips for people who want to just learn more and just feel like they've got a better grasp on? How would they even question it?

Joyann Boyce: 53:55

Yeah, definitely. So the one of the main things I would say is, whenever exploring or looking at anything that's machine learning, or AI focus, start with bias in mind. So don't shy away from it if they are like, if someone's going to create a product for you. And you've given them a target persona. Have it in your mind that when you go to test that you're going to have something that's intersectionally opposite. So if your target persona for the software or the tool or whatever it is, is a white male in his 40s, who's able bodied, make sure you have a test subject or some data of a black disabled trans woman ready to go. Ready to test that from the complete other opposite end. Because a lot of the time people are so focused on one avenue of targeting they forget the other areas. So and it's not biassed to me is not a negative word. And I feel like society is portrayed it a lot as that is something we're all gonna have, it is something that every tool software, every digital thing out there has, you just need to know where your bias is coming from where the tool is coming from. So nothing people can do is whenever you see an ad, on Facebook or Instagram, not so much Twitter, but an ad on M almost any digital platform, you can click normally top right hand side and see why the ad is targeted to you. So then you can get aware of what that algorithm has labelled you as. So then you have understanding, and you can start looking at things and being like, Okay, this content is going to be heavily x because the algorithm thinks x, it doesn't mean that you are, yeah, but then you understand the bias that you're being fed. And you can filter the content,

Dr Becky Sage: 55:51

so that young people don't have to understand the code itself, the algorithms, you know, in order to start questioning some of these things, and to start making sure that they've got a better understanding of what's going on. And in particular, like you said, work in terms of how they're being targeted and how they're being communicated to. And then another quick question, just because this this very person, I was talking to an investor yesterday, who was talking about how important diversity and inclusion was to the, however, that we understood I was talking about talking about bias, in particular, when it comes to machine learning AI. And, and they were saying, Well, of course, depending on the level of investment, we don't go in and examine every level of code. Do you have any tips for investors who I haven't answered, but I won't put words in your mouth, but all people who are saying these, like, you know, yeah, we want, we want inclusion, we want we want and we want things to be done properly, especially the companies that we're investing in, want to make sure that they are also considering diversity and inclusion. But what do you think is the answer to that when they're saying, look, we don't go in and look at every line of code that our companies are, are producing. So what what can they do to make sure that there is less bias built in or like you said, kind of, maybe the right kind of bias, conscious bias rather than unconscious bias? I guess maybe,

Joyann Boyce: 57:23

I think it would be beautiful. If within pitch decks or within proposals, there was a slide for bias, a slide for ethics and a slide for environmental impact as standard. Because with that bias slide as well, they need to break down the team developing it, and the percentage that's gonna lead because if your development team is all male, then you know you're going to have a white male bias. How are you going to counter that? If

Dr Becky Sage: 57:54

Yeah, that was my answer to that question.

Amy Armstrong: 57:57

Yeah, look at the team. It's fascinating, because what I'm hearing here is that like the criticality of the humans involved, and their natural unconscious bias, but also the opportunity that Diane, you're identifying and sharing and putting the spotlight on, which is actually just changing our codes of practice changing our systems and norms. So that actually, the questions that need to be asked are starting to be put in. So they become the standardised approach. And it's when systems support humans to do the right thing. That's when we start to get consistent change, rather than, than humans just trying their best, but not really knowing how and not understanding the questions to ask it's experts that you giant who are able to just say, and actually just by putting aside in for bias, and breaking down the team behind it, this isn't saying that team is bad at their job, and they're not correct. It's saying, This is the team behind it. And so this is the approach we need to take to factor that in.

Joyann Boyce: 59:12

Even in my most recent pitch, I had a slide saying, This is the bias of my team, my team is all black women, therefore we're more likely to lean towards this. This is how I want to wait my data. So therefore I'm going to use that bias as a benefit. We will filter for this in our future development. It's not going back to not being a bad thing. It's a thing, a tool and an aspect you can use. Same with the environmental aspect. Same with the whole ethics, a lot of things now with us leaving the EU and all that jazz. Having that there is just future proofing. And I think it would be great for investors to be like, oh, okay, so they're planning to do this, and they will be relevant when Generation Z comes about. So I will make more money that planning To have inclusive marketing as part of strategy, so therefore there'll be targeting wider audiences, therefore I'll make more money. Because, again, investors care about the money. That's why they invest in but then the money needs to back the DNI, you can't just say that you want to do it has to be, where's the benefit to you that this company's included diversity and inclusion in all aspects? Right.

Dr Becky Sage: 1:00:21

Right. We we need to wrap up with talking for a while. Before we do a top tip.

Amy Armstrong: 1:00:28

Amy, have you got any other questions? No, mine is about the top tip. So Jo Ann, what is your top tip to those who are starting out and just feeling overwhelmed? At the start of your journey, you are in the wrong place? And now it sounds as if Oh, my goodness, you are absolutely in the right place? What is it that you would recommend people do to help themselves? Be in that right place?

Joyann Boyce: 1:00:59

Mm hmm. Um, so I have a wall of post it notes in front of me of things. I like to remind myself and I'm trying to think which one fits?

Dr Becky Sage: 1:01:16

Maybe it's the whole thing.

Amy Armstrong: 1:01:19

If you want to share,

Joyann Boyce: 1:01:20

okay, do you think so the one that was the first one to go up that was done is better than perfect. And that's something that I really wish I embraced early on, because I strive for perfection and what I think is perfect at the start versus what I think is perfect. Now, a vastly different, you just need to get it done. Consistency is the key to success. Yeah. A question I started having when I worked with working with people is what does Dunn look like? So a lot of people were like, oh, we're gonna do all these amazing things. You know, you're gonna have all this cool thing, but like, what is done look like? What is the? How is that going to be? And work in a replaceable manner? Yeah. Everyone online is lazy get to the final one is people thrive here. That's the most recent one I put

Dr Becky Sage: 1:02:18

up. Something that you remind yourself,

Joyann Boyce: 1:02:22

yeah, I don't always have to I can give people opportunities within the company. I don't always have to send them away. is what I'm trying to get to myself going back to that whole wanting people to to build and be

Dr Becky Sage: 1:02:33

interesting, nothing. Well, that's doesn't amazing to kind of hear those, his affirmations those quotes. And I think I just like the idea of having that all as well as those the things that you need to pick from when you need them the most is that that's a nice tip in itself. So thank you so much. It's been a pleasure. I feel like we've we've kind of got on it on a mega journey over the last hour or so. Through all sorts of different things, finding out more about you, but also these areas where you're a real expert. So thank you so much for sharing all of that with us.

Amy Armstrong: 1:03:10

It's been wonderful.

Joyann Boyce: 1:03:12

Thank you.

Amy Armstrong: 1:03:19

Hope you enjoyed that interview as much as Becky and I did and details about where you can find our guests are in the show notes below. Now, Becky, where can we find you?

Dr Becky Sage: 1:03:30

You can find me at Becky Sage calm or I hang out a lot on Instagram. So that's at Dr. Becky sage. You can find things about how to get business coaching with me there. Also if you'd like to invite me to be a speaker or to work on any of your projects, then please do get in touch. So Amy, where can our listeners go if they want to find out more about you,

Amy Armstrong: 1:03:53

you can find me it's Amy Armstrong coaching.com come and explore leadership and well being coaching and hypnotherapy. And if you're struggling with that common SOS of stress, overwhelm self doubt, please don't hesitate to reach out. It would be so good to connect. So we can't always control the situations that are going on outside of us. But we can be in control of how we react to those situations.

Dr Becky Sage: 1:04:24

And that is what MindStyling is all about.